“We Want Politics Out of Furry Fandom” is a political statement, and here’s a good response.
by Patch O'Furr
Part of furry is "If you got to choose your own body, gender, beauty standards, etc. this is exactly what the world would be like."— Liam Anne of Oz (@Anxiousounce) October 5, 2017
“We Want Politics Out” is politics.
It’s a popular complaint. This fan group is supposed to be for interest in anthropomorphic animal media and nothing more. That boils down to lowest-common-denominator consumerism. It’s like everyone is a bottom-feeding plecostamus in their own fish tank, and what they consume is just random scum growing on the bottom. Who cares where it comes from? Just be a dumb fish.
The problem is, reductionism doesn’t tell the whole story. There’s a community attached to the way members consume things. And the complaint often comes with attacking care about how things work there. (Stop asking questions about the delicious scum!)
Everyone who’s here in good faith has some kind of care beyond themselves. It can range from management of websites or cons, to health and safety, or being a loose support network. You see it whenever a member gets help with money or a place to live, or even with complaints about FA’s management. When it’s time to talk about bigger stuff, complaining against politics is half-baked activism for the status quo. Here’s why.
Even as a pure hobby or interest, there’s something unique about furry. It’s one of the only crowdsourced fandoms, even when it’s inspired by central media power of others. Members build it every day. A sort-of comparison might be the Ren Faire community. Both are creatively self sustaining on their own terms.
Some people claim furry is capitalist because of art business, as if everyone’s a Monopoly man with a tail. It’s supposed to be some counterpoint about how things work. I run a business (when I’m not being a raffish sparkledog) and I think the point sucks. It’s shallow about terms like “industrial” versus “cottage industry”. Making bespoke art doesn’t scale, and meets and cons run on volunteerism. Fandom is less about profit than direct relationships of “furriness”. There’s numbers for it – look at labor that goes into expensive fursuits. Makers can earn under minimum wage for doing what they love doing for others.
“For others” is why calling it just a plain interest is a partial truth. In other words, an omission. More accurately, it’s part genre fandom, part DIY sub/counterculture, and part kink community. The people in it meet in real life, not just online. It brings them together for relationships and homes. It’s made of people, not anthro animals. And any community of people has politics.
Not just random people.
This group isn’t just an unremarkable little slice of the mainstream. Surveys show a strong bias towards an identity for many members. Nearly 2/3 of members are LGBT. It’s a super fabulously queer number.
Skip asking why and take it for granted that many members are non-LGBT (which nobody ever debates). It’s still impossible to call it a neutral number. It’s undisputably an association. Queerness isn’t neutral in the mainstream, and even less in a subculture where it’s so concentrated that it colors whatever is said about the group, like calling it “accepting.”
Saying it exists isn’t saying what politics should be. How you vote is up to you – when beliefs are in question, it calls for discussing issues first (especially with an international group). Of course, some issues are no-brainers. Some things are simply right or wrong. Not everything is a football game.
For example, in this particular community, being anti-gay is pretty close to being anti-furry. There are very few standards for being welcomed, but that’s a good one. It’s reasonable to expect every member to treat a certain 2/3 of the group as human. There isn’t middle ground or a debate about it. No hate is a basic reasonable standard. Unless you ask hate groups.
That includes their collaborators who refuse to repudiate real fascists among them, while pretending to be as neutral as the scum that bottom-feeders exist on.
The basic standard looks like this.
Dear everyone screeching about "you can't day who is and isn't allowed to be furry":— Spooky Squeaky (@VictoryDanceOfc) October 4, 2017
Nazis. Are. Not. Allowed. To. Be. Furry.
"Furries can't say they're welcoming and be mean to nazis! Philosophical checkmate!" No, kid. That's not even chess. That's not even Go Fish— Arilin Thorferra (@gc_arilin) June 3, 2017
They say, “You call everyone nazis and you’re hateful too!” Well if it quacks like a duck, call it a duck. (See Take Them At Face Value below). One can’t play both sides and pretend to be separate while being their support network. And calling the response “hate” is false equivalence about identifying a problem.
Some people hate crime, disease, or poverty. Others hate fascism. Nazi isn’t an identity – it’s about issues they support. Dead discredited dogma deserves zero benefit of the doubt. Rejecting it is just what normal people do.
It only barely counts as politics.
You can pick a fursona, but you can’t pick whether someone else is human. Having such a basic standard isn’t like putting on a hat for some candidate. It leaves voting issues as a whole other topic. So here’s a slightly more real example of “fandom politics”.
Furries are super-sensitive about media scapegoating, but there’s a love/hate relationship with the media. After all, it’s called a fandom. That’s why a personal motto for me is Be The Media. If you need a label for that, call it a DIY ethic. When I practice that with a site I built, it’s a statement. Furry and DIY go together. It’s part of building a whole community. Anyone can do it if they try.
Altfurry can’t DIY. That explains the shitty stolen memes.
There are also loose “politics” about being extremely inclusive and open to free expression. (Even physically, like Hugs are the handshake of furries” – Artists explore cultural meaning of touch.) 1960’s hippies had it as part of their politics too. It even makes furry a counterculture sometimes. DIY creativity and inclusion goes with the top quote:
“Part of furry is “If you got to choose your own body, gender, beauty standards, etc. this is exactly what the world would be like.””
OK, if it’s about power to be anything, how can there be standards? Because hate is antithetical to “furriness”, and moderating the group keeps it healthy to have that pawsitive power.
“Get Politics Out of Furry Fandom” undermines integrity.
A community has integral parts. Genre fandom, DIY sub/counterculture, and kink are glued together by acceptance to make a community. Without them it might not be one, and definitely wouldn’t be the one you know. The consumerist, lowest-common-denominator, Just Anthro Animal Media kind might be more of a corporate-run Mickey Mouse club.
Integral parts doesn’t mean every part is inherent to everyone. There’s a weird duality in accepting everything from Disney to Dirty, but you don’t have to be personally involved with kink at all. It’s like how cars are integral to modern society, but not everyone drives and you don’t need a car. However, if there were no cars it would be a very different world. Get it?
There’s a real community with parts that can’t be removed without changing everything. The Burned Furs (the previous generation’s altfurry) found out when they failed with puritanism against “perverts”. It’s part of furriness. So when there’s a complaint like “Get Politics Out of Furry Fandom”, it often means “get fandom out of furry.”
It can be a simple minded wish to boil things down to mere consumerism. Or it can be a more evil agenda to make you surrender to this toxic garbage:
A push to inject fascism into geek communities.
Nazis have learned geek communities are a super easy recruitmebt base. pic.twitter.com/wmZAkNlV0u— 🍪Grant Raycroft🍪 (@GDRaycroft) October 7, 2017
Read about newly-exposed proof of white nationalists behind the alt-right. Altfurry is just one fizzled attempt among many to attack so called “SJW’s” to inject their own politics. They’ve tried with gaming, metal music, sci-fi, comics, and furry. The term is Entryism, and the same haters feed it all.
Perhaps their hate will always be around. So will crime or cancer, but people don’t act helpless about it. Sane politics means just standing for a basic standard. That’s all it is – a line for all sides, not liberal or conservative; just the furry side. And don’t buy apathetic acceptance like this:
But are they really nazis? Take Them At Face Value.
As a subculture, Furry shares something in common with DIY Punk. Old punks had advice about fascists worming in to their scene – Take them at face value.
That refers to acting edgy/provocative/trolly, until they flip around and excuse it. Like pretending it’s just joking or for looks. Or denying being a member while collaborating. Or refusing to own it, and moving goalposts to pretend like rare card-carrying “real nazis” are the only issue. There’s equivocation about how “we’re diverse”, “gays can’t be nazi” or “some of my friends are black”. They love pedantry about “it’s not illegal” and doing an endless-prove-it-loop. There’s nothing they won’t do for plausible deniability about wrongdoing and manipulating. If they can’t hide it, they deflect with Whataboutism. They love acting offended at reactions they provoke, to gaslight and project problems at you. Games Nazis Play are a form of two-faced, have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too.
Whether they even understand it or not, it opens the door to the real thing, as ones waiting behind the door know very well. So is trolling like a nazi as bad as bringing real nazis in? …Does a bear shit in the woods?
When they do edgy nazi trolling, withhold benefit of the doubt and let them prove they’re not. When they flirt with fascism, don’t let them off the hook while they try to squirm away. They made their bed, so let them lie in it. It was foretold in this 2008 FurAffinity post about Furzis:
You want to call yourself a Nazi, I’ll treat you like a Nazi. And don’t gimme bullshit about how “we don’t call ourselves nazi’s” your wearing the uniform, your name is a play on “nazi” don’t give me weak excuses.
You don’t think the American Diabetes Association LIKES diabetes. The Southern Poverty Law Center doesn’t like poverty. Jonas Salk hated Polio. I hate Nazis. If you have to be intolerant of something, Nazis are a great choice.
Intolerance of intolerance isn’t liberal or conservative, it’s humanist. And fascism isn’t strictly right or left either, it’s a two faced chameleon. It incrementally worms into power through brinksmanship and playing many sides. It devours from within to destroy what lets it grow. It cons you by syncretizing elements of right and left. Their left side might be pandering to workers, nerds or people who feel powerless, and their right side is nationalism or supremacy. They say whatever sounds good to manipulate, but it’s consistent to nothing but power. That’s what makes gay nazis and non-white collaborators. It’s always two-faced.
Can confirm. Having been one and got out - white nationalists ALWAYS lie. They ALWAYS lie about what they believe.https://t.co/uLy5qutkFb— Vex the Scarewolf (@andreuswolf) June 12, 2017
By the way, it's often tempting to point out to these absolute cretins the absurdity and hipocrisy of being a nazi furry, but don't bother. https://t.co/ZCZjU9FhuR— S L Ö T H M Ö T H E R (@CaseyExplosion) October 16, 2017
Some people expect to change minds with nice words. That’s fine when you aren’t talking to trolls. It helps trolls to be deliberately exhausting, it’s not the responsibility of targets to change haters, it doesn’t scale, and it legitimizes bad faith when there isn’t something at stake. For those who try, call it a matter of multiple approaches that depends on others firmly rejecting them.
But the furry fandom really is one of the most accepting places (that’s what they exploit.) Sincere change of heart is how to get acceptance back, and it’s not hard to get for those who choose to leave for real. Click through for three excellent threads:
I used to low-key subscribe to white nationalist views, back in my early 20s. Not going to make excuses for it, I should have known better.— VƎX IS RUNNING D&D (@vexwerewolf) April 20, 2017
What's important to getting people out of shitty ideologies like that is the knowledge that they CAN go back. They CAN rejoin society.— VƎX IS RUNNING D&D (@vexwerewolf) April 21, 2017
Hey furries, I've been doing a lot of serious, heavy-going takes for a while. Here's a change of pace:— VƎX IS RUNNING D&D (@vexwerewolf) May 19, 2017
THE FURRY FANDOM IS FUCKING AWESOME
When you hear a complaint about politics in fandom, point out that it is politics. It’s as likely to undermine as to reduce conflict. It’s merely a thought-terminating cliche when everyone does politics sometimes. And you don’t have to listen to everyone because some things aren’t debatable. Don’t waste time on bad faith and discredited falsehoods, or half-baked oppositionalism that stands for nothing but freedom to be selfish at best. There aren’t “two sides” with parasitic, two-faced trolls who pretend to want an “alternative” without creating anything, who take advantage of the one great fandom. There already is a group for the acceptance they pretend should extend to haters; the basic entry requirement is just getting along with others. It’s something so basic you learn it in kindergarten. Or maybe as soon as people evolve beyond fish.
The best response is: Don’t look for middle ground where there is none. Just have a spine and stand for something better.
April 16, 2017
Update. “check it out guys, I found a living example of why @DogpatchPress‘s article about “apolitical furry” is so accurate!”
“People who are fine with Nazis when it’s “just talk” aren’t going to do anything to oppose them when it becomes more than just talk.”
“How to find nazis: 1) Post “fuck nazis” 2) watch for the “don’t call people you disagree with nazis!” comments 3) You found the nazis.”
Like the article? It takes a lot of effort to share these. Please consider supporting Dogpatch Press on Patreon. You can access exclusive stuff for just $1, or get Con*Tact Caffeine Soap as a reward. They’re a popular furry business seen in dealer dens. Be an extra-perky patron – or just order direct from Con*Tact.
[…] deliberately targeted for infiltration and subversion. The phenomenon has been widely reported, and Dogpatch Press has done a very good job of breaking it down in particular reference to the furry […]
I’ll just leave this here ….
While I’m all for rejecting hate groups in the fandom, there are some who are intolerant of furries who simply have moderate conservative views, who may have voted for Reagan or Bush, or don’t think universal healthcare is such a great thing, or even might have controversial views on abortion or military action of their nation.
Now I would consider myself pretty liberal (though I’m no fan of the far left) and I know conservative furries whose opinions I don’t always (or often) agree with. But I respect that they have the right to be accepted by the fandom just as much as me, and I don’t like it when they get hounded on social media by other furries.
I understand that we are a fairly liberal lot, and many of us would strongly disagree with their political views, but if we don’t make them feel welcome they will gravitate towards their own groups, possibly with views that become more right wing and extreme. Being more tolerant of political diversity will hurt groups like the Furry Raiders.
Perhaps this is what they are thinking of when furries say they want to keep politics out of the fandom. They want furries to be able to enjoy the fandom regardless of their (moderate) political views.
“intolerant of furries”
Well OK, they’re not furries… not the topic then, no need to look deeper.
If they’re not haters it’s fine. Hounding conservatives isn’t a good idea if they get along with others. Issues not labels… I was careful to say in a couple places it’s not about liberal or conservative but about the group itself vs. antithetical stuff like racism/fascism.
“if we don’t make them feel welcome they will gravitate towards their own groups”
There’s a giant gap between agreeing to disagree and making someone welcome, I’m sure not about to roll out a red carpet for someone just to keep them from turning into a nazi… if people gravitate to hate, it’s nobody’s fault but theirs.
You’d be surprised how easily ostracised and bullied moderates can turn into extremists. When only they are the ones who treat them with respect, it’s no wonder they join up. Blame whoever you want, but you can’t deny the bullying and ostracising is often a major cause for new recruits.
That’s why I strongly believe the best way to weaken the Furry Raiders is for the fandom to become more receptive to increased political diversity. You don’t need to roll out the red carpet to new conservative furries, but you can at least be willing to talk to them about other topics and don’t talk shit about them behind their back (unless they are genuinely an arsehole, but that’s a different matter). I’m not saying you personally don’t, but there are some furs that do shun and spread muck.
We should be showing that no matter your political viewpoint, we all share the bond of furry, and everyone (with a moderate political viewpoint) is welcome.
Nobody who reads this site and sees how often I hear that should be surprised by how often it turns out to be a bullshit cover story. This is one of the Games Nazis Play and I don’t accept this meme of “bullied and ostracized moderates” and “political diversity.” I don’t care what the source is, it falsely panders to the “but I should be able to say faggot, why are you bullying me” attitude of the dumb fish.
The main reason it spreads is to pretend that so called “sjw’s” and teens with silly hair on Tumblr are why, for example, a washed up comedian no longer has a stage at a big con to push a stale, nonfunny and hateful routine that no longer reflects what the con wants. (An actual counter example to the generic rhetoric.) As if 2 Gryphon failing to win invitation to a showcase wasn’t just the solid informed opinion of con organizers based on experience of running a good event.
The cause of “new recruits” to a tiny cult is everything that cults do, like grooming targets and feigning victim. Having the status quo about hateful stuff change isn’t “bullying and ostracizing”.
By default, people in this fan group don’t get asked what they vote for while they go about enjoying cartoons and stuff. That’s an unusual topic and it’s most likely that you raised it yourself rather than getting it pushed at you. Like in this case, I’m writing about altfurs, and you seem to think it’s about conservatives, when it’s not. It’s funny how with altfurs, a quick way to find where their real sympathies lie is to talk about actual nazis and see who steps up to defend.
Although, just happening to have a huge amount of LGBT members implies that certain alignments aren’t going to go over well. As it should be… there’s no reason the fandom should be moderate or “diverse” about stuff that’s fundamentally against treating them as human.
But regardless, I’m here in one of the most dense populations of furries that exists which also happens to be a very liberal place (the SF Bay area) and there’s none of this supposed ostracizing going on. People hear of a few rare Trump voters in the group and more or less shrug. You have to go way out of your way to provoke an argument about it. Don’t do that and there’s little issue about how welcome they are. Disagreed with sure, that’s part of actual diversity. But not spreading hate memes and hashtags about how “alt” you are is a really good way to not have a hard time.
Bottom line, I have very little interest in hearing about the hard times with politics had by people whose party controls the major branches of government in the US.
I know furries who have moderate conservative views, and while none have turned to the raiders, some have experienced a lot of harassment and have been shunned, while those who constantly parrot their liberal views are welcomed and reinforced. And no, they don’t call people faggots or any other bullshit like that. Sure, they could just keep quiet but that would hardly be fair, would it?
Groups like this groom targets by singling out those who are bullied and ostracised. It is literally how they recruit many of their followers. You think everyone who joins these groups are all racist scumbags from birth? These groups attract and brainwash people through an echo chamber of racist ideology. The ones I knew remained strong, but others may not be so.
You don’t think politics get brought up in furry chats? Hell yes it does! It’s been the cause of many a flame way, just like the rest of the internet. I had one of my Telegram channels shut down after an argument broke out between two liberals! Many try and avoid it, but it’s damn hard to avoid it altogether.
Yes, I know you are writing about alt-furs, and I’m writing about moderate conservatives because I believe the two are connected in some cases.
How do you want to get rid of the Raiders? By fighting them head on? That will never work, the more you fight the stronger they become. You need to cut off their supply of recruits, and increased political tolerance of moderates is a powerful way to do this. If you don’t want to do it out of sympathy, fine, but we both want the same thing, in the end, the weakening of the extremists, and I think it will work, even if you and others find it unsavoury.
P.S. And just to be clear, I’m not conservative, I’m far from conservative. I believe in universal health care, gun control, social security, gay marriage, abortion and all that (and I’m not from the US so we have most of that already). However, I’ll admit I’m not fond of SJW’s or the far left.
It looks like you’re being argumentative for its own sake and repeating the same things you already said. “I know furs who…” so do I, and I find the rhetoric to be weak and unpersuasive.
Let me mention some of those furs I know. Loud, argumentative conservatives complaining about “snowflakes” act far more thin-skinned than anyone they complain about – and further, they’re most likely to intentionally provoke argument so they can then go complain about how intolerant others are.
That’s what comes out from reading between the lines of the rhetoric. It’s what I’ve observed over and over again, from altfurs who organize trolling in their secret little chats that leak to me (for example the Altfurry Discord leaks), then they pretend it wasn’t all planned when they carry it out in public. They’re not having their voices shut down as passive receivers, they go out of their way to troll and then feign victim. That’s the real grooming situation.
They even troll each other to manipulate their emotions, and that isn’t the fault of “liberal” bystanders either. Thanks to the leaks I have access to I’ve been able to expose them doing it to their own members with plans to make them think it was “SJW’s” attacking them. When the targets figured out what was going on they left the group. (Leaving gets further manipulation, too.) Being nice and bending for them didn’t do it, exposing their own friends treachery did.
That’s what to do. Shine a light and draw a line. Not roll out a welcome to disagreeable people, who already have a place if they can get along with others. The Raiders are now as unwelcome as Burned Furs from 2000.
Some of those leaving members stories were published here: http://dogpatch.press/2017/07/24/altfurs-nazi-furs/ – I also posted a mention to patrons-only on Patreon about other ex-member stories being withheld for confidentiality.
I’m OK with going several rounds with someone having their say, but the limit is when I’m not interested in hearing retreads of the same thing, so I might have to moderate it, sorry.
I understand, you’ve made your position clear. I stand by my words but I agree we are going in circles. If you don’t want to debate any more that’s fine, I’m sick of it too. Your experiences are clearly different from mine, and neither of us are going to be persuaded by the other. If you don’t want to debate further I will bow out now. I would hope that my discourse provided a different perspective the to the typical “Nazi furs/Furry raiders are evil” circlejerk. Which is undoubtedly true, but it’s not helpful to just keep saying it, it doesn’t offer anything new or interesting. I don’t appreciate the the threat of moderation, but it’s your site and you can do as you wish.
Though I would offer one more piece of opinion, possibly something you would consider more relevant. Hate doesn’t defeat hate. While you can have the group and what they stand for, don’t automatically hate the individual. You would be surprised how a bit friendship and respect can away their views. It might seem unsavoury to befriend someone who has views you find repulsive, and I appreciate if you wouldn’t do it (especially if you are part of the targeted hate group) but sometimes some people just need to be shown that they matter outside of the group. I’m not sure I’m strong enough, but I like to think some are.
“You’d be surprised how easily ostracised and bullied moderates can turn into extremists.”
I’ve been bullied nearly every single day since high school for being gay and funnily enough I never once considered taking up arms and waging genocide against Jews and people of colour.
Well some people do. Not everyone is as strong as you. Some people just fall in with the wrong crowd.
“might have controversial views”
There’s your problem.
Controversial Views =/= Hate Views.
That’s the thing though – controversial views are controversial. You’re going to get heat if you state them in public, because they are controversial.
Of course, I also don’t want to run them out of Furry for merely holding unpopular views. I’m not going to give people who spout of libertarian viewpoints the time of day because I think it’s an idiotic worldivew, nor would I shout that people who think that abortion should be banned should leave the fandom.
If you publicly state a controversial opinion, you’re going to get some controversy. That’s the nature of the topic you opined on.
Some people don’t respectfully disagree though, they call them nasty names, compare them to extremists, and as you said they want to run them out of furry. That shouldn’t be acceptable, an I’m sure you agree with me on that.
Ok this comment system appears to have a depth to which you can no longer reply directly. So here’s an attempt at replying to Ralphie.
“Some people don’t respectfully disagree though”
That’s missing the point entirely. If someone hits someone, you don’t get upset for them swinging back, do you? Or maybe you do, I’ve met people who think that way.
Long story short, if they weren’t loudly proclaiming their viewpoints in public, there’d be nothing to respond to. If they don’t like that then perhaps, just maybe, they should keep whatever repellant viewpoint they’re so fond of to themselves for the duration of the con/meet/outing.
But that isn’t fair, is it? Why should they put up and shut up when those on the other side are free to parrot their views to eternity and receive pats on the back. We’re not talking about extreme views either, these are views any neutral person would call moderate, but to a group which is heavily liberal they are controversial. Either both sides should be free to air their views without harassment or bullying, or we do need to take politics out of the fandom.
Eh, I’m not the best person to ask that. To some my mere existence is a political issue. Especially if I have to use the bathroom.
Oddly they all seem to lean towards the same political views. Strange how that happens.
So I don’t think you want to get in a conversation with me about what is and isn’t “fair”
Thank you Achron. Point settled, and yes, you are free to “parrot this view to eternity”, there is no middle ground about your mere existence, no “neutral” person gets to make it controversial or air another side about it. That’s the basic standard up above, which a small hateful minority called altfurry refuses to respect. If that’s politics, which it barely is, then OK, let’s all have a basic political standard against hate.
Please close the topic, thanks. I will moderate any further rebuttal simply because it’s very tiresome to keep having it go around in circles.
I draw the line at genocide and fascism.
While I don’t agree with Regan’s policy or Bushes war stance they really were not Nazis and were not fascists.
They actually believed in our system even though I find what they pushed for as legislation to be horrible.
There is a wide gulf between being into trickle down economics and wanting all the Jews to die.
I am one of those people you are talking about. We exist. It is getting to be very hard to be conservative. We have to deal with being stereotyped as religious fundamentalists and other bad stuff like that, and the rise of the Nazis who are called right even though they are nothing like the actual right are making things even harder for us. Conservatives love freedom, Nazis hate it. So many people think that you can’t be a conservative without being either a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, or a climate change denier. It is possible to be Pro life and still be empathetic to people who feel like they need abortions. And just because conservatives love the military doesn’t mean we think everyone should be forced to live under the rule of the military like Nazis do. Conservatives definitely have problems with tolerance, but conservatives are nothing like Nazis. I think that the only reason why Nazis align themselves with the right is because there are more intolerant people on the right, not because their other political beliefs are anything alike. Liberals believe the government should try to fix all of our problems, conservatives believe the government should only try to fix some of our problems because they believe that trying to fix everything just causes more problems, but Nazis don’t care about fixing problems and just want power, control, and the ability to destroy what they hate.
“Alt right” is supposed to be an alternative to mainstream conservative politics, and was coined by a racist human-shaped booger, and it explicitly set out to advocate for racial supremacy. So, it’s definitely not the same thing as simply believing in smaller government.
A hard time might be relative depending on whether you like the president 🙂 For stereotypes about fundamentalists, climate change denial, etc… all I can say is blame the actual fundamentalists and denialists for wedging stuff in where it causes a problem. I generally try to listen to people before it gets to such topics, and only start tuning out if they do.
Everything’s personal opinion up to the focus on altfurry trolls. They’re not half or even a single-digit fraction of fandom. I could point to 3 points of comparison that seem to converge on about 300 members, if that, (counting alt accounts). It’s like 0.1% of the most toxic fringe among a possibly 6 figure total group.
I have mixed feeling about Donald Trump. He is doing several things very well, but he is not doing nearly as good of a job as I hoped he would. He is also arrogant and a little bit immature. And I think most conservatives and moderates who voted for him feel the same way. A big problem is that many liberals hate Donald Trump so much that they refuse to acknowledge anything good he does and treat people like they are monsters if they say anything good about him.
I don’t think that Donald Trump is a racist but I do disagree with his positions on immigration issues. I do believe that illegal immigration is a serious problem that needs to be gotten under control and that we need to be careful about who we legally let into country in order to keep drug traffickers and terrorists out, but I really think that the way Trump is dealing with these problems is the wrong way.
I wish Trump would tweet something in favor of gun control just so the liberal media can defend the second amendment for a change. lol
That “hate” word. I’m aware that not all conservatives are happy with Trump and understand it’s complicated, and I’ve been around a while without hating anyone for partisan reasons. In this case I’m deeply aware that he’s unfit for office and the most dangerous thing to this country since the 1930’s when fascists were rallying to align the US with Germany. Its not about personality or ignoring anything about him, but looking at his demogoguery and business career. All I need to know about his power is how it came not from building stuff but from inheritance and exploiting gaping tax loopholes, and foreign financing since his domestic credit is shot. It’s not american. Then there’s the bankruptcies and 3500+ lawsuits from people that he ripped off then bullied to death as a professional litigant. The criminal housing racism, mentorship by Roy Cohn, mob cronies, and what he did with the Central Park 5 is a cherry on top. The damage is so bad we won’t even know for a generation probably.
Hate is the correct word. I have heard a guy loudly and in public say “Trump supporters should burn in hell” during a discussion that had nothing to do with politics. I tried to make friends with the guy to help in realize that saying things like that is wrong and he treated me like a monster even though he knows nothing about me. Hatred is definitely the correct word for what people like that feel. I know that most liberals are reasonable people, but people like that are one of the big reasons why people don’t want to discuss politics.
People who spout hate speech like that no matter what side they are on should be kicked out and ignored so that we can discuss politics without shouting, or worse, violence.
Oops, I just noticed that there was mistake in one of my previous posts. I meant to say I DON’T agree with Trump’s positions on immigration issues.
I put out a list of issues and you put out a feeling. Luckily a guy being mean to you doesn’t have power to perhaps make laws about republicans using the bathroom, or deport them for not having papers no matter what they have contributed. It’s true that mean people exist anywhere, although some are meaner than others.
You really don’t need to tell me that. It has nothing to do with the point I am making. I know that most people are not as advantaged as me and that it isn’t fair. I am just saying that people who go berserk like that are a problem that makes people afraid of discussing politics. I am not equating this issue with the far worse oppression that other people have to deal with. This is a very different kind of problem. Politics are something that we need to be able to talk about. Not being able to listen to and respond to other viewpoints leads to ignorance and ignorance leads to stagnation.
Oh silly me, there was no typo that post. I misread what I wrote. I thought it incorrectly said “do agree” when I actually wrote “do disagree”.
I’m reminded of the Flayrah article from a month or so ago where some altright fucks took over a MUCK and stiffled any discussion of politics they didn’t like.
Political discussion for me, but not for thee.
I disagree that that first illustration is ‘apathetic acceptance’. Rather it actually illustrates your point about them lying and tricking their way into fandom, and using furries’ innate tendencies to accept everyone against us.
I found this article interesting enough for a second read… and I still have difficulty understanding how you can have a furry Nazi. It just seems wrong to me. However, it has come to my attention that the term Nazi has become quite common in recent politics to refer to just about anyone and everyone who disagrees with someone else. One of them more often than not ends up being called a Nazi or something equivalent. Nevertheless, I do believe it is important to remember what the Nazi political platform was. Strong centralized government, gun control, and controlled government healthcare seem to be forgotten while everyone is screaming Nazi this or Nazi that. I think we may be better off finding a new way to describe the various hate groups whether they are white supremacist or black panthers. I kind of like crazies myself, but don’t believe it carries a strong enough negative connotation for such groups.
I agree that the word “Nazi” is being overused to the point where it is losing its meaning. It gets really confusing when so many people are using the word against everyone they disagree with. This is a big problem when there are actual Nazis out there. People will start defending them because they don’t believe real Nazis exist when they are correctly called “Nazis”.
Exactly, I am sure you have been called a Nazi just as I have, which seems absurd to me, but I do have some very conservative view when it comes to government controls, while I tend to lean very liberal on personal liberties. I just don’t understand why it is so difficult for people to accept that I don’t want any part of the government dictating my life. As far as Trump goes, I don’t care for him, but I do support a good bit of what he as accomplished. I can only hope we have better choices next election, but I fear it isn’t going to get any better, but worse.
That’s what they want. They WANT that term to lose all meaning and lose its effect. Yes, it happens that people cry “anyone who disagrees with me is x,” but that’s just their way of trying to make its legitimacy less and make the term laugbale. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it’s a freaking duck and you should call it as such.
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