by Patch O'Furr
Updated Feb 2019
- Did you hear about that one time when President Obama invited a furry to the White House?
- Read interviews with personalities like Pixar movie directors, punk rocker Jello Biafra, comedian Margaret Cho, and the most devoted fans.
- See how fursuits sell for $25,000, and the biggest furry conventions raise six figures for charity and millions in local spending.
- Furries in movies, on the front pages, featured on Youtube, trending on Twitter, and more.
Dogpatch Press has published over 1200 articles so far. These got high traffic, dug deep to uncover a story, or they’re just favorites.
INTERVIEWS FOR FANS AND FURRIES:
Makers and Doers make a subculture thrive. Whether they build it or feed it with stuff we like, they have valuable stories to tell.
Movie directors, animators, artists, event builders, superfans, and more. Jello Biafra, Pixar’s Michel Gagne, Uncle Kage and more.
A THRIVING SUBCULTURE – PAST AND FUTURE, POLE TO POLE.
There’s a fur con somewhere in the world every weekend of the year. There’s furry houses with multi-generations of fans. Here’s roots, coming opportunities, spotlights on what makes a good community, and how far their influence goes.
- Galactic Camp: a furry con takes flight on the USS Hornet, Feb 23, 2019
- Representing furries in 2018: Good news on CNN, Sonicfox, and a tiger on Jeopardy. (Part 1)
- Representing furries in 2018 with 10,000 at Midwest Furfest, Dogbomb’s magic, and more (Part 2)
- A tribute to Fred Patten, 1940-2018
- Furries you meet at Camp Tiny Paws
- Furry Awakenings
- The Diversity of the Latin American Furry Fandom – by Rama and Patch.
- Monster Party Cafe opens in Japan – the first permanent furry-themed business?
- Review – Furry Nation: The true story of America’s most misunderstood subculture, by Joe Strike.
- The ConFurence Archive: a new resource for fandom history, with Q&A by Mark Merlino.
- The Furry House – a base for creativity and community.
- Furry Good Ideas: Fursuit of the Year award and fashion show, and more. – Events, festivals, books, guilds, or galleries that could exist.
“CELEBRIFURRIES” AND STREET CRED:
Furries have more influence than they even realize. Advertisers covet the street cred of subcultures. Disney winked at us with Zootopia. Are there celebrities who are secret furries? How do other subcultures overlap? What are the peaks of mainstream recognition for the fandom?
- Margaret Cho barks about furries, pride, and costuming on The Masked Singer
- How Yamer won a contest, a job, and the love of fandom by smuggling furry into the mainstream.
- Jello Biafra’s Incredibly Strange Interview and dance party with furries: San Francisco, 12/1/18
- SonicFox, world record Esports champion: fursuit “a peak thing in life for me”
- Q&A with Kazul of Kazplay, first place winner for cosplay at Blizzcon.
- Who let furries in the goth club? Death Guild vs. Wild Things.
- Get freaky at Dante’s InFURno – the Burning Man theme camp for sex-positive furries.
- After #tonytigergate, companies go Pro Furry and the Daily Show gets involved. – A satirical scandal.
- On stage with CHVRCHES and more great times with the San Francisco Bay Area Furries. – Spontaneous spotlight.
- 2016 is exploding with ‘furry’ movies like Zootopia – what will come with all the hype? – Making Buzz With PR Control.
- The President’s fur meet – The “Celebrifurry” List, PART 1: Politicians and VIP’s. – Encounters with leaders.
- Fursuiters were kings at Andrew WK’s Pizza Party in San Francisco. – A famous furry supporter.
- Mainstream advertising: “More and more, Furries are being hinted at in marketing media.” – Visuals to catch notice.
- VNV Nation, Skinny Puppy, industrial music and furries: an inexplicable multi-nerd connection. This had thousands of outside views.
- John Waters and furries. – Encounter with a freaky creative hero.
FURSUITING, THE MOST FURRY ACTIVITY.
It’s the the most original fandom creation, with it’s own coined name. Nobody does it like furries and nothing else represents them so directly. Fursuiting is a booming cottage industry and makers are raising the craft until they’re envied by commercial mascot designers. Only 20% own this costly wearable art with scene-stealing looks, but a picture is worth a thousand words. It’s hard to deny their huggable appeal (representing the touch-based name of this subculture.)
- Fursuit photography from the urban jungle: Goku’s Furban Exploration (Part 1)/(2)/(3)/(4)
- Australia’s Lucky Dog Fursuits slurps up a job for Schmackos pet treats.
- Furry Fashion (part 1): Youth, Fursuiting, and Magic for Everyone.
- FUTURE FURSUITING: furry’s most original creations and the rise of tech-enabled smart suits. – One of the site’s most read articles.
- Marta the River Otter – the adorable fursuit mascot of King County, Washington. – Outstanding work.
- Zarafa’s stolen fursuit found in San Francisco, after big support response. – The strength of community.
- Fursuiting, pro sports, and The National Mascot Hall Of Fame. – Looking at mainstream crossover. (3 parts.)
- “Fursuits are furry couture – high art furry fashion”. Racked.com consulted furries for their article.
- Edmonton Oil Kings hockey hosts fursuiter race. “It’s looking hairy at ice level!” – A showcase event.
- Enough squeaker abuse- let’s upgrade fursuit sound effects! – New technology for future fursuiting.
- Renegade fursuiting is BEST fursuiting: chat with Sakura Fox. Wisdom from a superfan. (3 parts.)
- Opinion: Street fursuiting is the most fun furry experience. Celebrating spontaneous street theater.
THE FURRY ECONOMY:
Cons are expanding at a healthy rate. Furry creators work fan-to-fan with self-sufficiency that even supports full time careers. Their main site Furaffinity is an independent project acquired by a venture-capital funded company. It’s rising beyond a full-fledged subculture to possible commercialization. How will it develop?
- Fursona Pins – a fandom success
- A financial fuss about FurFlight – can it fend off a fandom fiasco?
- A look at furry business with a $17,017 record fursuit auction price, July 2018
- Furry Socialism: You’re Soaking in It!
- ArtworkTee issues and the heart of the furry economy
- Made Fur You sews up a fandom record with a $13,500 fursuit auction at The Dealer’s Den.
- Furry artists among top highest-paid Patreon creators, but face threats to their livelihood.
- How furry conventions fail (or please) their vendors – Critical discussion.
- Furry Marketplaces: Where to Shop and Browse Online
- Who runs furry fandom? Check this list of cons with formal corporate structures. – The Furry Illuminati.
- One Town, Two Cons: Let’s compare and ask organizers about Furry community growth. – Competition vs. cooperation.
- About the sale of FurAffinity – a Q&A with IMVU – the Value of WTF. – A milestone and what it means, 3 part series.
- $3 million sale raises furry auction topic. Now that’s an expensive fursuit! – Comparison to mainstream memorabilia.
- $11,575 record fursuit sale and $17,500 top price. – Indicators for a creative market.
- Measuring the Furry Economy. – Summary of topics and metrics at Flayrah.
Fandom has hidden connections to a rich history of art and performance. A “museum of furry” could exhibit work that look like it’s from a parallel universe. Call them Paleo Furries. A “Panto-animals and Paleofurs” con panel could uncover hidden depth for what we love.
- If there was a Museum of Furry, theatrical “Panto-Animals” would be a major exhibit. – Discovering an amazing lost tradition.
- Theatrical Panto-animals, Part 2: Feedback, history and sources roundup. – Searching for more.
- Theatrical Panto-animals, Part 3: History book reviews by Fred Patten. – Very little was ever published about this.
THE FURRY ART WORLD
It’s one of the most creative fandoms because all the content is self-generated. Sometimes it gets recognition in galleries and more.
- How furry animator Jib Kodi found his art: “When I saw that tail move, I was instantly hooked.”
- Fur Con teams up with Artsplosion in San Jose, CA.
- Don’t miss the Anthropomorphic Enchantment show in San Francisco.
- Tip Your Makers! Why to pay more for art to improve commissioning and spread the love.
- Scale’s unique art exhibit mixes furry art and fine dining.
- Scale’s paintings push limits of furry art, with surprising mainstream crossover. Adult furry art gets appreciation from the general public.
- Five pro photographers advancing the art of furry documentary. – They’re making books and gallery shows.
- “Further Confessions” photo project puts fursuiting in an art gallery, and does FUN right. It’s challenging to catch on camera.
THE FURRY MOVIE SCENE.
Film and video can be more challenging than other media where furries thrive. Other subcultures have developed enough to support independent film making. There have been a few attempts at furry features and some outside ones that come close. There are many fursuiting shorts (especially music videos) and animation student work. The holy grail might be a furry-made animated feature.
- Furry movie lovers – what’s this (F3) thing coming to Utah?
- Rukus is a furry movie premiering on Feb 2 – here’s the trailer and a review by Marbles.
- Mascot Fur Life – movie reviews by Rex Masters and Flash Hound
- Rukus premiere at SF Indie Fest (2/2/18) – a furry movie says Lights, Camera, Anthros!
- Cinéma Anthropomorphique – the monthly movie meet for furries of Oslo, Norway
- Furry Nights movie review – a crowd pleaser for lovers of campy indie horror.
- Nova Seed movie review- a rare find of sci fi animation.
- Interview with a Secret Furry animator inside a top movie studio.
- Frameline Film Fest features two furry documentaries – furs invited to a red carpet event.
- Fursonas documentary out now – one of the top Furry News stories of the year.
- Take The Bunny And Run – “Furry heist” is a movie idea waiting to happen.
- “Furry Film Festival” idea expands with the [adjective][species] team.
- “Furry Film Festival:” thoughts from Fred Patten and Califur’s video programmer.
- ‘Fursonas’ beats Zootopia as most important furry movie, coming soon on Video On Demand.
- Furries are renting theaters for Zootopia meets, and they’re getting bigger than cons.
- I love Finsterworld. This tragicomic movie with a Fursuiter is a treat for smart watchers. – See also Finsterworld tag.
FURRY MUSIC AND DANCE PARTIES – IT’S A MOVEMENT:
Since around 2010, furry dance parties are getting established as urban night life. They build on the growth of cons, but take their own direction in partnership with established venues. Howl Toronto says – Con dances happen once a year, and “that’s just not enough to fill the need!” There’s also a slice of the fandom that makes original music and is starting netlabels, composing for video and games, and performing at cons.
- What is furry music? Q&A with musicians.
- The Furclub Survey: introducing the world’s independent Furry dance parties. – A list you won’t find anywhere else.
BAD MEDIA, GOOD MEDIA.
Media exploitation makes sensitivity about being in the spotlight, but it’s a chicken-or-egg relationship. Rising recognition and appreciation brings power to negotiate and be better represented.
- CNN’s This is Life with Lisa Ling: Furry Nation – review by Joe Strike
- Remembering Kim Wall, a journalist who found the best side of furries.
- Call for help with the Fullerton Murder story; and The Furry Code Of Silence.
- A welcome new category for the Ursa Major Awards: Best Anthropomorphic Non-Fiction. – Finally.
- Bay Area Furs find out why there should be a Furry award for Best Journalism. – Nonfiction hasn’t been well covered.
- VICE looks back on the Midwest Furfest attack, earning kudos for thoughtful journalism. – There is good media.
ANTHROPOMORPHIC POLITICS OF THE WORLD.
Like Democrat donkeys, Republican elephants, or “Animal Farm” the political allegory by George Orwell.
- Pounced.org shuts down – international fans affected by American politics.
- A furry’s brush with fascism – authorities “don’t understand the seriousness of the threat.”
- On February 17, don’t go to work – go fursuiting for a General Strike in the USA.
- Fandom grows in Southeast Asia – could it bring culture clash with Islam and authoritarianism?
- The Enough Already podcast made me look at furries vs. conservatives, Gamergate and Trump.
- FurAffinity updates Code of Conduct, backlash by hate groups promoted by 2 Gryphon
- 2 Gryphon punches down on a critic – what can we learn from this?
- Discord bans Altfurry hate speech – see what they’re hiding with a leaked organizer phone call.
- The truth behind a famous, misinterpreted “nazi furries” photo.
- How I Ended Up in the Alt-Lite, and How I Got Out
- Ever hear that Altfurries are just trolls? A real Nazi leader is taking them seriously.
- A deep dive into the Altfurry mission to “redpill” fandom with hate
- Why furries should care about politics in 2018 – guest post by WhiteClaw.
- Furry Raiders attack a nonfurry business, get chased off with a positive solution for hate.
- How low can they go? Altfurry is grooming kids to retaliate against critics.
- What I learned from lurking the Furry Raiders chat – guest post by Aristide
- “We Want Politics Out of Furry Fandom” is a political statement, and here’s a good response.
- Here’s the Altfurry blocklist – a powerful tool to reduce hate spam.
- Charlottesville marcher Andrew Dodson linked to furry fandom and neo-nazi organizing.
- Furries resist hate, Altfurry Discord logs go public, Casey Hoerth removed by employers.
- Altfurry supports neo-nazi violence, with member Nathan Gate on camera in Charlottesville.
- The truth about the myth that “Deo Killed RMFC” – guest post by Harper.
- How furry fandom is rejecting neo-nazis, “Altfurs” and Furry Raiders who target kids for hate.
- The Confederate fursuit incident shows how you can’t be a troll and a victim at the same time.
- Culturally F’d Addresses RMFC, “Nazifurs” and the BIG Problems Behind It All
- Sorin, Chair of Rocky Mountain Fur Con, discusses demise of the con.
- The end of Rocky Mountain Fur Con didn’t cure the problem that caused it.
- A false rumor about RMFC is repeating history from the Burned Furs.
- Rocky Mountain Fur Con backs neo-nazis, sex offender to intimidate critic for reporting threat.
- 2 Uncool – a furry celebrity’s disgrace is a test of fandom tolerance.
CHARITY AND SUPPORT.
- Fur Health’s fitness training guide – and a mental health video from Taebyn pup.
- Furries invited to a charity livestream for the It’s Your Haven Foundation, December 8-9
- Three furries save lives in deadly multi-vehicle crash in England.
- Animal Rescues Need Your Help in the Wake of Hurricane Harvey
WHEN FURRY MEETS FURRY – “THE TOPIC THEY LOVE TO HATE”.
It’s not an urban legend – some furries get wild. But sex isn’t a definer. It can be a family friendly hobby too. Media hypes sex, but romantic themes are part of being human, and furries are just regular people with extra rich imaginations. Being unusually open and expressive is required for an interest spectrum beyond the default. It can cause controversy. It also makes first-time visitors call them the most friendly people you could ever party with. This blog is anti-prude and not shy about sex-positivity.
- “Naughty Bits” fursuit video shoot with Rachel Lark – sex-positive art in the age of Trump.
- The closing of Pounced.org is a wake up call for fandom attitudes about sex.
- Opinion: It doesn’t matter if adult art is more popular than clean art.
- Furry Network’s new content policy gets panties in a bunch. – The most contentious topic in furry art.
- It was so much fun to be in an outrageous Rap CD and a live comedy show! – “Live Sex” was the name.
- “Wild Things” will fluff your fur with a second fetish party in San Francisco. – Success brings a sequel.
- SEX! Researchers, journalists, and furries debate The Topic They Love To Hate. – Controversy.
- Creators of furry fetish party explain “human sized cat box”. – The truth of an urban legend.
- Creators of a furry fetish party dare to be “Wild Things” (NSFW content). – Few events like this have ever been promoted.
- “Hugs are the handshake of furries” – Artists explore cultural meaning of touch. – Thoughts about “furriness.”
- Furries share worries about pay-dating fraud: spotlight on FurFling.com. – This caused a commotion at Flayrah.
FURRY PRIDE TIMELINE.
San Francisco Pride is one of the biggest Pride events in the world, with organizing by Patch since 2012.
- 2018 – Going strong with several dance parties and a furry float that won an award from SF Pride.
- 2017 – San Francisco Pride had a furry float after taking the previous year off, and this time it was a Burning Man art car.
- 2016 – Bay Area Furries did a booth and fursuiting plus movie screenings at Frameline Film Fest.
- 2015 – Return of the furry float, a huge year because same sex marriage bans were overturned across the USA.
- 2014 – The first furry float at SF Pride since 2005 in front of national media and huge crowds.
- 2013 – Growing attendance for informal fursuiting meets at SF Pride.
- 2012 – Patch revives fursuiting meets at SF Pride after they were inactive for a long time.
- Bay Area Furries were in SF Pride in 2002, 2004 and 2005. Parade video from 2002 was a first appearance anywhere as far as we know.
Sometimes it’s fun to mix satire and comedy with news. Keep Furry Weird.
- Furry fandom “hide the yiff” alert system will create a clean image for the media
- How to Be Cool and Play Off that Furry Porn You Forgot Was on Your Phone
- Reviewer slams furries for infesting her hotel – you’ll cry when you see the Manager’s epic reply.
- HERO DAD finds sexy art in furry kid’s room, hangs it on wall to appreciate it.
- Here’s why furries are on a secret list at the California DMV.
- A Newcomer’s Guide To Furry Terms and Customs.
- A brief history of who ruined furry.
- Q&A with Biohazard, artist of the infamous “Too Hot for PBS” auction video.
- Exchanging Fluids on PBS: Your eyes will bug out at this WTF furry video from 1992! – An astonishing subcultural stunt.
Acceptance is a big feature of furry subculture. It draws interests together, but nothing represents every member, because membership is self-defined. Some interests get conservative disapproval. It makes tension between freedom and collective interest. It can involve prejudices, laws, or times for a social group to stand up for itself.
- Yiff Panic? Judgement in a Connecticut town shows it’s still not safe to be openly furry.
- Costume bans and security: Bad news for fans who plan to see highly anticipated movies in costume. – (3 parts)
- Oklacon is canceled, and you might want to call Oklahoma’s Tourism Department. – Prejudice and misbehavior.
- Fight the Beigists! Furries defend the National Fun Reserve. – Ranting and praise.
- Anniversary of the New Jersey FurBQ Hoax – this bullshit cost $185,000. – A look back at a trumped up attack.
- Mask/hood bans: haters and control-freaks love this excuse for war on fun and freedom. – Killing expression for security.
- Vermont town selectively bans fursuiters: Prejudice complaint and update. – A public conflict.
WHAT’S WRONG INSIDE FANDOM?
Furries have been punching-bags with sensational media exploiting them as freaks. It can come from bias to only look for the worst in people. It can show stigma, shaming, scapegoating, or a streak of homophobia. But negativity doesn’t build anything, and that’s why it’s losing power with time. If you hear of “inherent” problems, look at the positive, expressive nature of the group.
- Furry founder Fred Patten saw more partying, less fandom in 2018 with the Ursa Major Awards.
- Puppy play incident at Furry Weekend Atlanta – is that OK in public? (Part 1)
- Puppy play incident at Furry Weekend Atlanta – is that OK in public? (Part 2)
- The Zaush Issue – leaked private messages make a public discussion.
- The Ursa Major Awards are a fandom institution, but can we fund them?
- Classism in the Furry Fandom: An Opinion by Nightf0x
- Harassment in fandom needs to be taken seriously – guest post by Lamar.
- Revisiting Rainfurrest: what can we learn about limits of a growing fandom? – Internal dilemmas.
- Why are “nerdy” groups male-populated? – It’s about positive self expression.
- There’s a persistent rumor that Furry fandom was perverted by a bad ad for ConFurence. – It spread for 18 years. Here’s the source.
CRIME AND PUNISHMENT:
Any community has crime, so it naturally happens with furries sometimes. Most everything they do is harmless and positive, but rare problems can get sensationalized and it needs caution about bias.
- Josh Acosta Sentenced for life in Fullerton Murder – By Rune.
- Zoosadism investigation: Capitalizing on abuse, and the ugly persistence of Kero.
- Zoosadism leaks: possibly the worst story to ever hit fandom.
- Hairy heist: Have you seen this fursuit? Truckload of Furry Burning Man gear stolen in Oakland.
- One con, three predators – what this says about furry fandom.
- A furry look at an abuse story about John Kricfalusi, creator of Ren & Stimpy.
- Magnus Diridian asked for an interview, so we talked about an attack on a convention.
- “Confederate fursuiter” Magnus Diridian arrested at Midwest Furfest – what’s the story?
- R.C. Fox arrested for child pornography, furries question fandom connections.
- Youtube’s popular Reptile Channel has a history of banned animal abuse by JonahVore.
- Is this news editorial cartoon about furries making fun of a tragedy? – More about Fullerton.
- Statement about the tragedy in Fullerton, CA. – A triple homicide was national news; Dogpatch Press got quoted in Rolling Stone.
- Abuse against man in “tiger porn” case shows contempt for rights. – Bias leads to abuse of authority.
SPECIAL GUEST POSTS BY PUP MATTHIAS:
- More Furry YouTubers You Might Not Have Seen
- CNN’s This Is Life is amazing TV – relations with the media – and more positive furry stories.
- There She Is!! Is Here To Brighten Your Day!!
- Meet Emma the Tiger – A Showcase of Fandom Love from BLFC 2018
- Furry YouTubers You Might Not Have Seen
- More Furries Are Being Featured in the Media, and That’s Good.
- EZ Cool Down vests are a major business for fandom and beyond – EZ Wolf tells why.
- Interview with #FurryBookMonth Creator Huskyteer
- Five Furry Animation Shorts You Should Check Out
- Fursonas and Furries: A Tail of Two Docs (Part 1) – Continued in Part 2
- Waterways is why I Love the Furry Fandom.
- The Raccoon’s Den – The First Docudramedy Series in the Furry Fandom.
- Read Only Memories, the cyberpunk video game with an LGBT twist
MORE SPECIAL GUEST POSTS:
- “Furries make the internets go”: a Behind The Meme story with Durango Dingo and Summercat.
- Corgi Events Is the Fandom’s First Convention Management Company – By Grubbs Grizzly
- “You fucking resplendent flower!”- Chuck draws anxiety and depression, but mostly pigeons. – By Bessie
- Dogbomb Leads Furry Fandom To Highest Fundraising For ALS Cure Event – by Tuck Tucker
- “Last Mutt Standing”: Dogbomb inspires the world through his courageous battle against ALS – by Kijani Lion
- MAD Magazine and the “Lighter” (?) Side of Furries – by Joe Strike
- Dogbomb: Not your ordinary canine – by Kijani Lion
- Wat ‘n Wolhaarstorie! – A South African Article on Furries – and a radio show. – By Duncan Piasecki.
- Critical review of “Red Engines”: When furry fiction becomes islamophobic propaganda – by Dwale.
- Texas Furry Fiesta 2018 Review – by Rune.
- Prepping for a Furry Convention – by Rune.
- Talking Animal Films in South Africa – By Duncan Piasecki
- Furry Publishers – A Resource for Artists and Authors – by Summercat
- Furry Book Month – Some Recommendations – by Summercat
- Furry Drama(tic Arts) – The Forgotten History of the Furry Musical – By Duncan Piasecki
- Furries are winning Emmys and Youtube Creator Awards. – By Arrkay.
- Original species of furry fandom: an overview. – by Rune.
- A Brief History of Cartoon Animals Punching Nazis – By Arrkay.
- April is Furry Poetry Month – guest post by Shining River.
- A Decade of Gold: A retrospective of the works of Kyell Gold. – by Thurston Howl.
- What’s Yiffin’? February 2017 edition – now syndicating the monthly furry news program – by Andre Kon.
- The Best Furry Videos of 2016! Culturally F’d teams up with Dogpatch Press. – by Arrkay.
- My weird plush commissions – by Amy Brown of Jumbo Jibbles.
- Furry YouTube, and Previously on “Culturally F’d”. – By Arrkay.
- Zootopia: A Call For Balance – by Alex Reynard.
- Fur-Esports: A Competitive Gaming Team for Furries. – By Smash Capps.
- Snow White vs. All Dogs Go To Heaven: A Look at How Kid’s Movies Encouraged the Founding of the Furry Fandom. – By Amanda R.
FRED PATTEN PRESENTS:
Check his tag. Fred was a star guest poster, with a long resume as fandom historian and reviewer.
- 6 Exotic Fantasy Animals To Create A Unique Fursona
- A present from furry fandom to Fred Patten.
- Furry literature: Advertising it outside of furry fandom – with Fred Patten and Phil Geusz.
- The State of Furry Publishing – Fred Patten gives the inside story of eight groups.
- Even More of What the Well-Read Furry Should Read – early 2016 Update. – Even more reviews.
- How did Disney inspire Furry fandom? A look at early influences by Fred Patten. – “was Disney a specific and major influence?”
- More of What the Well-Read Furry Should Read. – More reviews.
- Fred Patten Presents his articles about Furry publishing, animation, and history. – From a founder of organized fandom.
- What the Well-Read Furry Should Read. – Hundreds of book reviews of Furry fiction and more.
THE REGULAR NEWSDUMP (phased out):
See the “Newsdump” tag. These digest posts had curated links and “list worthy” small stories from around the web and the border between subculture and mainstream. They gave a look at the state of the community over time.